Aids HIV FAQ

Supplement Industry Not Healthy

Question:

> Eeewwwww  you read Ayn Rand. > And so do you.  Remember when you wrote this?  It was while you were in the > midst of misrepresenting another person as a bigot impinging on your > freedom:

huh? What are you talking about? > "Once again, I think it is your intent to deter me from choosing objectivism > as my primary philosophy. I cannot be held responsible for people who poorly > practice objectivism. I understand the vital > importance of studying a wide variety of philosophies AND I LEARNED THAT > THROUGH OBJECTIVISM." > Nice.  Nice.  Very nice.

Thanks, I thought it was a very nice defense of objectivism as well. However, it almost seems like you are trying to expose something that you thought I was trying to keep secret. Let me clear you up on this happy. I am proud to say that Ayn Rand is one of my favorite authors, and I consider my primary philosophy to be my own, personalized interpretation of, "objectivism." Happy, if you would like to add more off topic comments, perhaps you should go to the NG from where you took this quote. I’ll be happy to continue that thread if you would like to participate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would berate you more for your contraditions but I’d be afraid of > exaggerating your neuroses, which is the obvious cause of your lack of > ability to debate your point. > I seriously suggest that you see a shrink. > That pretty much sums up the best of your debating skills Kenect. > Misrepresents a posters arguments, often in the extreme, pepper your > responses with insulting epithets and then try to paint the poster as > irrational and unworthy of your participation.  Same tactic you used on AF > when you hurled insults and accusations at him whilst getting your ass > whipped in the MLM debate.  I don’t normally butt in on threads without an > on topic point to make.  But your tactic of resorting to insults and > irrational accusations makes you a special case.  You’re an excellent > example of the kind of alt med proponent who gives all the legitimate ones > who seriously think, and argue in a useful way, that it has some merit a bad > name. > erf

Since I don’t want to spend much energy responding to this pathetic attempt at character assassination, I’ll just ask you a few questions that you should have no trouble responding to happy. 1) Did AF "whip" my "ass"…. before or after he started responding to his own messages under an alias? 2) Didn’t he pretty much quit posting here after I exposed that? Tsk, tsk, tsk, happy. I would have thought you would make better friends than him. Say, speaking of paranoid neurotics, don’t you think AF and Kali should get together and sell rain shelters since they both think the sky is falling? Before you buy.

Response:

> > It is really disgusting that you are on some kind of crusade against > traditional medicines, > I am against traditional medicines – ha ha ha ha!!!!!! That’s a good one! > First of all, you are talking to a freakin’ acupuncturist!!!!! Next – don’t > tell me that most of the supplements you find in a health food store are > TRADITIONAL!!! This is the most entertaining post I’ve heard in a while! > Tell me more!

Didn’t I already respond to this? As an acupuncturist, you should full well know that your profession has long been accused of hucksterism and trying to sell cures for everything. Now here you are saying that the industry has too many hucksters in it? Name one industry that doesn’t. If you are pro alt-meds, why the vision of doom and gloom? (BTW there are many health food store that sell ONLY traditional meds, but the subject is totally irrelevant) > You said, "it’s time to pull andro out of health food stores," two posts > ago. Do you really have that short term of memory? > Hello! Any one home? Let’s spell it out in ABC’s for you. Health food store > owners get a clue. Pull Andro out before the feds come in (which they might > be fixing to do).

Thanks for spelling it out for me. It’s too bad that you have to resort to insults when you could easily have stated your position in your original post, instead of leaving *who* should *pull* it, up for grabs. > Yeah, it’s true that you are wasting your time manufacturing contradictions > that aren’t there. That’s an easy one. Let’s spell it out in ABC’s for you. > Health food store owners get a clue. Pull Andro out before the feds come in > (which they might be fixing to do).

You’ll probably attack me for asking, but what is your source for this prediction? > Since you seem to think that you are some kind of God of rationality, > please explain to me why you stated, "it’s time to pull andro out of > health food stores," and why you are now saying that DRUGS should be > legalized. > May I recommend a quick course on logical fallacies? You’ll never hear me > say we need more regulations, though I feel we need to conscientious > proprieters to voluntarily pull it from the shelves.

Glad to know it. Too bad you weren’t clear on that in your original post. I’m sure you know that a lot of people would like to see natural molecules made illegal. > What a surprise, another evasion. When you are ready to debate the > issues, please do. Until then your pathetic insults are nothing more > than a minor annoyance. > First, I need a worthy opponent. Since your bogus ‘contradictions’ argument > just sunk you are left with only ad hominem fests. > Flame on! It’s entertaining – but wipe the foam from your mouth.

Ummm…. you posted one dubious source for your assessment of the alt-med industry. If what you say is true, I would like to know what other reasons you have for your position. It is a classic argument of anti-alt’s, to say that the sky is falling, in order to scare people. If you think that the supplement industry is going downhill, don’t you think you should have more than one source? It is sort of ironic that you would attack me directly after you accuse me of attacking you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I refuse to admit, "the "sign" can also take place in a declining > industry," because people on this planet don’t compete for a niche that > is not profitable. If you really read Rand, this fact would be obvious > to you. > Also, I already stated, "since supplement sales have been *skyrocketing* > for the last 7 years, I suppose it’s about time it leveled off." Which > is not to say that it has, because I have not found any evidence that it > has. Your source is about as credible as any fly-by-night supplement > company. > Try this on. That’s really a gas when we haven’t seen any of your sources! > You have quoted no source! Let’s see if YOU can come up with one first. Then > maybe we can look at it’s veracity.

I need a citation to show that companies would *not* compete for a declining market niche? Do you honestly think that a "big battle" for the top slot in the food bar niche is a sign of a declining industry? Besides, I cited Rand! > Suggestion: Try reading my posts before you respond to them, and > especially before you embarass your self by attempting to insult me. > Okay, back to the embarassment thing, huh? There’s not much to read from a > flyweight mind who has no cogent arguments – just a lot of smoke and

flak. I’m the one who’s, "left with only ad hominem fests," right? Go ahead and keep on embarassing yourself. I don’t mind. > Ha ha ha, now that’s funny! Would you please quote me, as to where I > made a claim that you have no worthwhile advice? Look at what I did say; > "Your cynicism does nothing to help anyone." It doesn’t. > I see. A rabid, irrational, cynical, neurotic, mental patient might have > SOME good points here and there! We’ve got to hand it to you there!

Oh boo-hoo! I  suggested you might have rabies *after* you said I was foaming at the mouth. I called you irrational because you have only one source for you assessment for the state of the alternative medicine industry. I called you cynical because you seem to think that the supposed decline of the alt med industry is due to the "greed and dishonesty," practiced by many sellers of supplements (I have asked you repeatedly to name one industry that has no corruption). You flat out admitted you were neurotic! I never called you a mental patient, although I have suggested that you get some help. My apolgies if that offended you, but you *did* say you were neurotic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > when many supplements have tons of facts to > > support their efficacy and safety. > What?! That’s what I’ve been saying all along! Now, you go on this > huge > tirade JUST TO AGREE WITH ME? What’s up over in your neck of the > woods? What > kind of herbs are YOU on? And you are asking if I go to a shrink? Get > out of > here! > You said; "There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for > everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us." > So that means I said they ALL are hucksters, huh? This is called creative > imagination and you have a huge case. And to think you are infering that you > are such a stickler for detail.

I’m a stickler for detail? Hmmmm, I guess I might be. No you never said "they" are "ALL" hucksters. You implied that the entire alt-med industry is in decline because there are too many hucksters. Let’s look at the semi-recent case of the vitamin manufacturers (Roche? who else?) who were found guilty in a US anti-trust case. I believe the fine was the largest in the history of anti-trust. The companies were fixing prices on something like 70% of the world’s vitamin supply (don’t quote me on that figure). Now that their conspiracy has been broken up, prices will surely drop for vitamins. Should I take that as another sign of a declining industry? Another consequence is that smaller vitamin manufacturers will be cleared to enter the market. More manufacturers equals more competitive pricing. Should I take that as a sign of a declining industry? The way I see it, vitamins are going to cost less, and more people are going to buy them. Don’t you agree? > I would berate you more for your contraditions but I’d be afraid of > exaggerating your neuroses, which is the obvious cause of your lack of > ability to debate your point. > Please don’t berate me anymore. I just can’t take it! All those > contradictions you pointed out have, as you keep repeating, EMBARRASSED the > hell out of me. Now I’ll go crawl in a hole with my tail between my

legs. You never did answer me when I asked about your statement "…*we’re* neurotic," should I assume that you don’t have multiple personalities? A better question… if you did have multiple personalities, would any of you know? Before you buy.

Response:

> That pretty much sums up the best of your debating skills Kenect.

do average people really care about debating *skills* on an ng like mha?? (well, obviously YOU do erfy–but i dont suppose you are average) all this one-up-manship is what you guys live for, right? isnt that why you are here?? > Misrepresents a posters arguments, often in the extreme, pepper your > responses with insulting epithets and then try to paint the poster as > irrational and unworthy of your participation.

gee, who else does this….who has done this VERY SAME thing–at least 2 outta 3 anyway–with lil ole moi on several occasions….. >  Same tactic you used on AF > when you hurled insults and accusations at him whilst getting your ass > whipped in the MLM debate.  I don’t normally butt in on threads without an > on topic point to make.  But your tactic of resorting to insults and > irrational accusations makes you a special case.

huh?? you mean kali never uses insults and irrational accusations?? and here i thought that i’d stumbled into welcome to the international house of right-back-atchya. >  You’re an excellent > example of the kind of alt med proponent who gives all the legitimate ones > who seriously think, and argue in a useful way, that it has some merit a bad > name. > erf

sigh….this all it *always* boils down to with a few of you. "getting ones ass whipped" (or not) in a debate. testosterone, wadderya gonna do……us girls have our sewing circle and you guys are a debate team on steroids….. weeellll, i suppose it is rather subjective…that "argue in a useful way" part of what you said……useful *is* in the eye of the beholder. it is very amusing (for me anyway) to see these types of reactions in posters who lean toward the aggressive and button-pushing side when the tables are turned…… the way i see it, when one makes consistent use of a "bring it on" "in your face" style of posting, one should begin to expect certain predictable reactions and be able to deal with them efficiently, especially if one has had a whole lotta practice……. but i think it is so very special of you to jump to little kali’s defense, erfy…..you guys….what a troop!  LOL!! awright, where’d i put my sewing?

Response:

Eeewwwww  you read Ayn Rand. And so do you.  Remember when you wrote this?  It was while you were in the midst of misrepresenting another person as a bigot impinging on your freedom: "Once again, I think it is your intent to deter me from choosing objectivism as my primary philosophy. I cannot be held responsible for people who poorly practice objectivism. I understand the vital importance of studying a wide variety of philosophies AND I LEARNED THAT THROUGH OBJECTIVISM." Nice.  Nice.  Very nice. > I would berate you more for your contraditions but I’d be afraid of > exaggerating your neuroses, which is the obvious cause of your lack of > ability to debate your point. > I seriously suggest that you see a shrink.

That pretty much sums up the best of your debating skills Kenect. Misrepresents a posters arguments, often in the extreme, pepper your responses with insulting epithets and then try to paint the poster as irrational and unworthy of your participation.  Same tactic you used on AF when you hurled insults and accusations at him whilst getting your ass whipped in the MLM debate.  I don’t normally butt in on threads without an on topic point to make.  But your tactic of resorting to insults and irrational accusations makes you a special case.  You’re an excellent example of the kind of alt med proponent who gives all the legitimate ones who seriously think, and argue in a useful way, that it has some merit a bad name. erf

Response:

> It is really disgusting that you are on some kind of crusade against > traditional medicines,

I am against traditional medicines – ha ha ha ha!!!!!! That’s a good one! First of all, you are talking to a freakin’ acupuncturist!!!!! Next – don’t tell me that most of the supplements you find in a health food store are TRADITIONAL!!! This is the most entertaining post I’ve heard in a while! Tell me more! > Did it ever occur to you that nobody on this planet knows everything? > That, with the knowlege base as huge as it is, it still does not contain > every fact about the world around us?

What?! You really went there?! What in the hell brought that up? Who ever said someone knows everything? Bizarre! > You said, "it’s time to pull andro out of health food stores," two posts > ago. Do you really have that short term of memory?

Hello! Any one home? Let’s spell it out in ABC’s for you. Health food store owners get a clue. Pull Andro out before the feds come in (which they might be fixing to do). >What makes you think > that your opinion of andro should be the final one?

Another queer right angle turn. Those findings came from real researchers. Whre did "my final opinion" come into play? > Uh… do you have rabies as well as neuroses? > It appears that debating with you is a serious waste of my time since > you claim one thing, then you claim that you claimed the opposite. I > just quoted you above, you think that andro should be pulled off the > shelves. Now you are contradicing your self. And you go on to call me > pathetic. I’m the one who’s flailing right?

Yeah, it’s true that you are wasting your time manufacturing contradictions that aren’t there. That’s an easy one. Let’s spell it out in ABC’s for you. Health food store owners get a clue. Pull Andro out before the feds come in (which they might be fixing to do). > Since you seem to think that you are some kind of God of rationality, > please explain to me why you stated, "it’s time to pull andro out of > health food stores," and why you are now saying that DRUGS should be > legalized.

May I recommend a quick course on logical fallacies? You’ll never hear me say we need more regulations, though I feel we need to conscientious proprieters to voluntarily pull it from the shelves. > Are you really so paranoid that you think I am trying to destroy you? > How silly!

Mosquitoes have never bothered me much. I am used to their buzzing sounds. > What a surprise, another evasion. When you are ready to debate the > issues, please do. Until then your pathetic insults are nothing more > than a minor annoyance.

First, I need a worthy opponent. Since your bogus ‘contradictions’ argument just sunk you are left with only ad hominem fests. Flame on! It’s entertaining – but wipe the foam from your mouth. > I refuse to admit, "the "sign" can also take place in a declining > industry," because people on this planet don’t compete for a niche that > is not profitable. If you really read Rand, this fact would be obvious > to you. > Also, I already stated, "since supplement sales have been *skyrocketing* > for the last 7 years, I suppose it’s about time it leveled off." Which > is not to say that it has, because I have not found any evidence that it > has. Your source is about as credible as any fly-by-night supplement > company.

Try this on. That’s really a gas when we haven’t seen any of your sources! You have quoted no source! Let’s see if YOU can come up with one first. Then maybe we can look at it’s veracity. > Suggestion: Try reading my posts before you respond to them, and > especially before you embarass your self by attempting to insult me.

Okay, back to the embarassment thing, huh? There’s not much to read from a flyweight mind who has no cogent arguments – just a lot of smoke and flak. > Ha ha ha, now that’s funny! Would you please quote me, as to where I > made a claim that you have no worthwhile advice? Look at what I did say; > "Your cynicism does nothing to help anyone." It doesn’t.

I see. A rabid, irrational, cynical, neurotic, mental patient might have SOME good points here and there! We’ve got to hand it to you there! > when many supplements have tons of facts to > support their efficacy and safety. > What?! That’s what I’ve been saying all along! Now, you go on this huge > tirade JUST TO AGREE WITH ME? What’s up over in your neck of the woods? What > kind of herbs are YOU on? And you are asking if I go to a shrink? Get out of > here! > You said; "There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for > everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us."

So that means I said they ALL are hucksters, huh? This is called creative imagination and you have a huge case. And to think you are infering that you are such a stickler for detail. I still > I would berate you more for your contraditions but I’d be afraid of > exaggerating your neuroses, which is the obvious cause of your lack of > ability to debate your point.

Please don’t berate me anymore. I just can’t take it! All those contradictions you pointed out have, as you keep repeating, EMBARRASSED the hell out of me. Now I’ll go crawl in a hole with my tail between my legs. — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

Response:

> Ha ha ha! I worship the FDA!! And I’m altruistic! Me – an Ayn Rand reader! > Too much, my man. What next?!

Eeewwwww  you read Ayn Rand. Does that make your pathetic attempts to scare people away from what you think is wrong any less altruistic? I claim that prescription medicine ads are a far more likely culprit for the *mass-neuroses* that you mistakenly percieve, than the few ads for alt-meds. If you think that because the FDA has more money than most alt med companies, that it would some how negate the effect of the barrage of xenical and claritin ads on TV, then it should be painfully obvious to even the most uneducated reader that you overestimate the protection offered by FDA. > Anyway it’s true what you said about drug interactions – because we are > dealing with sicker (and thus, more ADR-prone) patients – esp. when they get > to the heavy drug phase. The problem is that it wasn’t drugs that got most > of them to that stage. Better re-think this specious argument, buddy.

Yes, it was a lack of proper nutrition (and probably a lack of supplementation) that led to many of the degenerating diseases suffered by many Americans. It is unfortunate that there are so many morons who promote the idea that the alt-med industry is filled with, "greed and dishonesty," (your words) while so many disease could be prevented by a few cents of minerals and vitamins per day. > Yep, I’m as crazy as a loon!! Mainly because I don’t agree with you! I > surely must be nuts!

Actually, it’s entirely because you admitted that you were. Here, let me quote you; "it’s no wonder we’re neurotic about our health." BTW, when you say *we*, I assume you are referring to Americans and not any multiple personalities you may have. Am I correct? > Wow. Cool history. I’m impressed – though I can’t understand what your point > could possibly be.

Think about it genius. > None of that hype and history eliminates the fact that there is a > possible correlation between the fact that McGwire was using the steroid > at the time he broke the home-run record. There have been anecdotal > claims such as that for at the very least a hundred years (probably a > lot longer). > I wonder if it had anything to do with his laser eye surgery which gave him > 20/10 vision. You’ve got to know that baseball is largely a hand/eye > coordination sport. if you hit the ball right it’s going to go.

Your attempts to draw me into another straw man argument about andro will not support your attack on the traditional medicine industry. I am not an andro fan, I merely support the notion that not every thing is known about the drug, and since it can easily be obtained by refining a natural product (monkey balls?), it should not be banned from the market as you support. (Once again, I do not recommend that any one take andro, I only support the freedom to purchase the drug.) > Did it ever occur to you that nobody on this planet knows everything? > That, with the knowlege base as huge as it is, it still does not contain > every fact about the world around us? > What?! You really went there?! What in the hell brought that up? Who ever > said someone knows everything? Bizarre!

You seem to think that you are the ultimate authority on andro and that your opinion should be the final one. You do not know every reaction that andro has in the body and it is not your decision as to whether I can buy it at a health food store or not. > I don’t take andro, I’ve never even tried it and I certainly wouldn’t > recommend it. I am convinced that the studies that have been done prove > that the risk outweighs the possible benefits. > At least we agree on something! Scary!

Why is that scary? Because you like to be neurotic and you are afriad that you might get straightened out by my opinions? > The difference between > you and I, is that I think people should have the freedom to buy the > *natural* product of their choosing without getting someone elses > permission. > Whoa!! I don’t know where in the hell that one came from either. Here I > thought I was very libertarian in my thinking. man, do you have an > overactive imagination!

You said, "it’s time to pull andro out of health food stores," two posts ago. Do you really have that short term of memory? What makes you think that your opinion of andro should be the final one? > However, I do strongly support the appropriate labeling of products like > andro. Consumers do have a right to be warned if they are using a > product that may cause them harm. It is the manufacturers ethical > responsiblity to warn consumers and I agree there is a lack of ethics > in the both the natural medicine and the prescription medicine industry. > Whew! That is y pint in a nutshell. And all of this foaming at the mouth for

Uh… do you have rabies as well as neuroses? > That doesn’t change the fact that if I want to buy andro, I should have > the right to without people like you trying to stop me. I’m sure you > will bitch and moan about how dangerous that could be, but the fact > remains that I do not give you permission to make my decisions. > Now you need to invent an instance where I said you shouldn’t be able to get > whatever you want. Hell, I even think DRUGS should be legalized. You’ve got > to try to be a little more accurate before you start flailing away!

It appears that debating with you is a serious waste of my time since you claim one thing, then you claim that you claimed the opposite. I just quoted you above, you think that andro should be pulled off the shelves. Now you are contradicing your self. And you go on to call me pathetic. I’m the one who’s flailing right? Since you seem to think that you are some kind of God of rationality, please explain to me why you stated, "it’s time to pull andro out of health food stores," and why you are now saying that DRUGS should be legalized. > Your > fear of what troubles may be caused by having an open market, stem from > your blind faith that the FDA is an infallible agency that never lets a > dangerous product on the market. > Yep, i’m a real FDA lover all right. Everyone around here knows that. Yeah – > I’m a real mainstream guy!! Ha ha ha ha!

Actually, with your conflicting opinions, I think it’s pretty obvious that you are far more irrational than even the most mainstream of mainstreamers. > (thoroughly decimated straw-man swept up and put in recycle bin…) > Man- that was devastating!

Are you really so paranoid that you think I am trying to destroy you? How silly! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Wow, what a defense of your claim. Actually, it seems more like an > evasion. Competion for a market niche is the sign of a burgeoning > industry. Your claim about the *BIG* battle, (my emphasis) directly > contradicts your claim that the supplement industry is slipping. I’ll > gladly clarify myself more if needed, because I am confident that I am > correct. It’s too bad that you have to consistently resort to insults to > support your claims. > Things might SEEM like an evasion to someone confident in their need to be > right, but the "sign" can also take place in a declining industry which you > refuse to admit. Holy cow! To infer that the industry has sales that might > be down seems to threaten your world view or something. Relax – your beloved > industry will be around!

What a surprise, another evasion. When you are ready to debate the issues, please do. Until then your pathetic insults are nothing more than a minor annoyance. I refuse to admit, "the "sign" can also take place in a declining industry," because people on this planet don’t compete for a niche that is not profitable. If you really read Rand, this fact would be obvious to you. Also, I already stated, "since supplement sales have been *skyrocketing* for the last 7 years, I suppose it’s about time it leveled off." Which is not to say that it has, because I have not found any evidence that it has. Your source is about as credible as any fly-by-night supplement company. Suggestion: Try reading my posts before you respond to them, and especially before you embarass your self by attempting to insult me. > As a matter of fact I do. Before you consume any traditional or > prescription medicines I suggest that you check *at least* 3 positive > and 3 negative sources. After all, nobody cares about your body more > than you do. > All right. I am man enough to tell you that you have some worthwhile advice. > Are you going to stick to the claim that I have NONE?

Ha ha ha, now that’s funny! Would you please quote me, as to where I made a claim that you have no worthwhile advice? Look at what I did say; "Your cynicism does nothing to help anyone." It doesn’t. > when many supplements have tons of facts to > support their efficacy and safety. > What?! That’s what I’ve been saying all along! Now, you go on this huge > tirade JUST TO AGREE WITH ME? What’s up over in your neck of the woods? What > kind of herbs are YOU on? And you are asking if I go to a shrink? Get out of > here!

You said; "There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us." I would berate you more for your contraditions but I’d be afraid of exaggerating your neuroses, which is the obvious cause of your lack of ability to debate your point. I seriously suggest that you see a shrink. Before you buy.

Response:

> Uh… right, guy. It really amazes me the way some people will get on > their knees and bow before the FDA as if it weren’t just as corrupt as > any other giant organization on the planet. In your holy, altruistic > quest to save the people of America, have you happened to notice that > prescription drug interactions kill a whole heck of a lot more people > than herbs and alts have? Yes, it is absurd that you would call me > incredulous as you worship the FDA.

Ha ha ha! I worship the FDA!! And I’m altruistic! Me – an Ayn Rand reader! Too much, my man. What next?! Anyway it’s true what you said about drug interactions – because we are dealing with sicker (and thus, more ADR-prone) patients – esp. when they get to the heavy drug phase. The problem is that it wasn’t drugs that got most of them to that stage. Better re-think this specious argument, buddy. > BTW, since you’ve admitted that you are, tell me what it’s like to be > neurotic about one’s health. Are you taking any medications for it? How > about seeing an ND or a psychiatrist?

Yep, I’m as crazy as a loon!! Mainly because I don’t agree with you! I surely must be nuts! > So then, has the little FDA cult that you are a part of convinced you > that you can read minds now? Wow, impressive. > Delta-4-androstene-3,17-dione is a direct precursor of not only > testosterone, but estrogen as well. It was first isolated in 1935 by the > German, Ernst Laqueur (who also isolated testosterone). Of course, after > his discovery there was tons of hype about the new "dynamite" drug. > Hype about testosterone has been popular in the US and Europe ever since > Brown-Sequard began selling his panacea of ground monkey balls, with > claims based entirely on anecdotal evidence. While Brown-Sequard could > easily be accused of very bad science, he is also popularly known as > "The Father of Endocrinology."

Wow. Cool history. I’m impressed – though I can’t understand what your point could possibly be. > None of that hype and history eliminates the fact that there is a > possible correlation between the fact that McGwire was using the steroid > at the time he broke the home-run record. There have been anecdotal > claims such as that for at the very least a hundred years (probably a > lot longer).

I wonder if it had anything to do with his laser eye surgery which gave him 20/10 vision. You’ve got to know that baseball is largely a hand/eye coordination sport. if you hit the ball right it’s going to go. > Did it ever occur to you that nobody on this planet knows everything? > That, with the knowlege base as huge as it is, it still does not contain > every fact about the world around us?

What?! You really went there?! What in the hell brought that up? Who ever said someone knows everything? Bizarre! > I don’t take andro, I’ve never even tried it and I certainly wouldn’t > recommend it. I am convinced that the studies that have been done prove > that the risk outweighs the possible benefits.

At least we agree on something! Scary! The difference between > you and I, is that I think people should have the freedom to buy the > *natural* product of their choosing without getting someone elses > permission.

Whoa!! I don’t know where in the hell that one came from either. Here I thought I was very libertarian in my thinking. man, do you have an overactive imagination! > However, I do strongly support the appropriate labeling of products like > andro. Consumers do have a right to be warned if they are using a > product that may cause them harm. It is the manufacturers ethical > responsiblity to warn consumers and I agree there is a lack of ethics > in the both the natural medicine and the prescription medicine industry.

Whew! That is y pint in a nutshell. And all of this foaming at the mouth for > That doesn’t change the fact that if I want to buy andro, I should have > the right to without people like you trying to stop me. I’m sure you > will bitch and moan about how dangerous that could be, but the fact > remains that I do not give you permission to make my decisions.

Now you need to invent an instance where I said you shouldn’t be able to get whatever you want. Hell, I even think DRUGS should be legalized. You’ve got to try to be a little more accurate before you start flailing away! Your > fear of what troubles may be caused by having an open market, stem from > your blind faith that the FDA is an infallible agency that never lets a > dangerous product on the market.

Yep, i’m a real FDA lover all right. Everyone around here knows that. Yeah – I’m a real mainstream guy!! Ha ha ha ha! > (thoroughly decimated straw-man swept up and put in recycle bin…)

Man- that was devastating! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > There’s now a big battle for top slot in the energy bar segment > > > of the industry. > > Oh wow. A "Big Battle" huh? You know, I thought you just said, "The > > major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product > glut." > > Now you say there is competition for who makes the best food bar. > That > > would imply new products and increased demand for food bars. Would > you > > please clarify me on this point? > Oh man, if you see a contradiction here, then it isn’t going to do > much good > to use reasoning with you – you missed the whole thing. > Wow, what a defense of your claim. Actually, it seems more like an > evasion. Competion for a market niche is the sign of a burgeoning > industry. Your claim about the *BIG* battle, (my emphasis) directly > contradicts your claim that the supplement industry is slipping. I’ll > gladly clarify myself more if needed, because I am confident that I am > correct. It’s too bad that you have to consistently resort to insults to > support your claims.

Things might SEEM like an evasion to someone confident in their need to be right, but the "sign" can also take place in a declining industry which you refuse to admit. Holy cow! To infer that the industry has sales that might be down seems to threaten your world view or something. Relax – your beloved industry will be around! > As a matter of fact I do. Before you consume any traditional or > prescription medicines I suggest that you check *at least* 3 positive > and 3 negative sources. After all, nobody cares about your body more > than you do.

All right. I am man enough to tell you that you have some worthwhile advice. Are you going to stick to the claim that I have NONE? > It is really disgusting that you are on some kind of crusade against > traditional medicines,

I am against traditional medicines – ha ha ha ha!!!!!! That’s a good one! First of all, you are talking to a freakin’ acupuncturist!!!!! Next – don’t tell me that most of the supplements you find in a health food store are TRADITIONAL!!! This is the most entertaining post I’ve heard in a while! Tell me more! when many supplements have tons of facts to > support their efficacy and safety.

What?! That’s what I’ve been saying all along! Now, you go on this huge tirade JUST TO AGREE WITH ME? What’s up over in your neck of the woods? What kind of herbs are YOU on? And you are asking if I go to a shrink? Get out of here! When you obviously know the facts > about some supplements, why do you waste your time and embarass your > self by attacking the industry as a whole? Do you work for a pharmo or > something?

Gawd am I ever embarrassed. About what I haven’t the faintest – but since you tell me I am, I must be. Let’s hear another brilliant response, especially how I work for the pharmos! Even people who hate me don’t bother to go there. I must really be perplexing you for you to have to stretch it this far. We’ve got your # now, pal! PAH-thetic! — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

Response:

The natural supplements I use do work. Its a shame that everyone thinks everyone else is trying to sell stuff in here cause its not always the case. If you really, really have come to the end of you dieting tether then sometimes supplements is the only way to go. The best ones I have tried yet are made by berrytrim (see http://berrytrim.com) and have helped me lose over a stone in the last 5 months. Hope someone listens Laura P Before you buy.

Response:

> — > Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

(snip) > Sagging sales? Your source please. > Source: National Council For Reliable Health Information Newsletter, October > 1999

Oh great. A psuedo-scientific drug company shill that exaggerates every single flaw in the alt med industry in an attempt to scare people away from the products that prevent disease and prevent the need to purchase expensive pharmaceuticals. If you are going to make business oriented claims, give me an business oriented source. Otherwise, quit trying to scare people. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Everywhere I look I see ads for herbal remedies and "natural" > > health aids such as magic magnets and sex enhancers. We’re so > > inundated with flim-flam products, it’s no wonder we’re neurotic > > about our health. > A few fallacies here. *We* are not *neurotic* about our health. It is > apparent that the concern for health issues has increased (and probably > dramaticly) in the last few decades. You have some sort of problem with > this? You think it is neurotic for an individual to be concerned with > his health? Please state one thing that is more important than an > individuals health. Personally, I think that health is the most > important thing in a persons life. It pleases me to see that our society > is increasingly health oriented. > It’s funny that you are ranting about advertising of natural medicines > when it should be painfully obvious to any one who is in contact with > *any* form of mass media, that there are far far far more advertisements > concerning prescription medicines. Are you going to rant about that as > well? > Absurd. One industry has virtually no rules it needs to follow and the other > is heavily tested with the best of science and multi-million dollar studes > to prove efficacy and safety.

Uh… right, guy. It really amazes me the way some people will get on their knees and bow before the FDA as if it weren’t just as corrupt as any other giant organization on the planet. In your holy, altruistic quest to save the people of America, have you happened to notice that prescription drug interactions kill a whole heck of a lot more people than herbs and alts have? Yes, it is absurd that you would call me incredulous as you worship the FDA. BTW, since you’ve admitted that you are, tell me what it’s like to be neurotic about one’s health. Are you taking any medications for it? How about seeing an ND or a psychiatrist? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Studies have shown andro to be ineffective and possibly harmful > > to athletes trying to bulk up. Even baseball slugger Mark McGwire > > now says he’s no longer taking the drug, which has been a big > > seller in health food stores. > Wow. There are studies showing oxygen to be harmful. Should we all stop > breathing? BTW, I’d like to see your source on this claim (about andro > being harmful). > That’s ridiculous incredulity, my man. You are not up on this one. I can > pull out MANY studies, but guess what, it won’t change your mind. Here’s one > from those evil, greedy doctors (who knows what you consider proof).

So then, has the little FDA cult that you are a part of convinced you that you can read minds now? Wow, impressive. Delta-4-androstene-3,17-dione is a direct precursor of not only testosterone, but estrogen as well. It was first isolated in 1935 by the German, Ernst Laqueur (who also isolated testosterone). Of course, after his discovery there was tons of hype about the new "dynamite" drug. Hype about testosterone has been popular in the US and Europe ever since Brown-Sequard began selling his panacea of ground monkey balls, with claims based entirely on anecdotal evidence. While Brown-Sequard could easily be accused of very bad science, he is also popularly known as "The Father of Endocrinology." None of that hype and history eliminates the fact that there is a possible correlation between the fact that McGwire was using the steroid at the time he broke the home-run record. There have been anecdotal claims such as that for at the very least a hundred years (probably a lot longer). Did it ever occur to you that nobody on this planet knows everything? That, with the knowlege base as huge as it is, it still does not contain every fact about the world around us? I don’t take andro, I’ve never even tried it and I certainly wouldn’t recommend it. I am convinced that the studies that have been done prove that the risk outweighs the possible benefits. The difference between you and I, is that I think people should have the freedom to buy the *natural* product of their choosing without getting someone elses permission. However, I do strongly support the appropriate labeling of products like andro. Consumers do have a right to be warned if they are using a product that may cause them harm. It is the manufacturers ethical responsiblity to warn consumers and I agree there is a lack of ethics in the both the natural medicine and the prescription medicine industry. That doesn’t change the fact that if I want to buy andro, I should have the right to without people like you trying to stop me. I’m sure you will bitch and moan about how dangerous that could be, but the fact remains that I do not give you permission to make my decisions. Your fear of what troubles may be caused by having an open market, stem from your blind faith that the FDA is an infallible agency that never lets a dangerous product on the market. (thoroughly decimated straw-man swept up and put in recycle bin…) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > There’s now a big battle for top slot in the energy bar segment > > of the industry. > Oh wow. A "Big Battle" huh? You know, I thought you just said, "The > major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product glut." > Now you say there is competition for who makes the best food bar. That > would imply new products and increased demand for food bars. Would you > please clarify me on this point? > Oh man, if you see a contradiction here, then it isn’t going to do much good > to use reasoning with you – you missed the whole thing.

Wow, what a defense of your claim. Actually, it seems more like an evasion. Competion for a market niche is the sign of a burgeoning industry. Your claim about the *BIG* battle, (my emphasis) directly contradicts your claim that the supplement industry is slipping. I’ll gladly clarify myself more if needed, because I am confident that I am correct. It’s too bad that you have to consistently resort to insults to support your claims. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The whole industry is facing disappointing sales. The profits > > for the leading supplements companies fell this year, and it > > looks like the trend is continuing. > Really? I hadn’t heard that the "whole industry is facing disappointing > sales." I look forward to verifying your source on this information. > Although, since supplement sales have been *skyrocketing* for the last 7 > years, I suppose it’s about time it leveled off. > > If the supplement industry sinks, it will be because of its own > > greed and dishonesty. > It won’t. Greed and dishonesty are in every industry in every country of > the world. Your cynicism does nothing to help anyone. > I’ll bet you have something to "help" us all.

As a matter of fact I do. Before you consume any traditional or prescription medicines I suggest that you check *at least* 3 positive and 3 negative sources. After all, nobody cares about your body more than you do. It is really disgusting that you are on some kind of crusade against traditional medicines, when many supplements have tons of facts to support their efficacy and safety. When you obviously know the facts about some supplements, why do you waste your time and embarass your self by attacking the industry as a whole? Do you work for a pharmo or something? Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks for your testimonial, Bob. Glad you are finding what you consider to be help. Bob, you haven’t even scratched the surface. Check back with us in 18 months. I wish you the best. — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All I can add to this is that I weighed in at 282 for over 5 years. I > took many "supplements" but nothing worked. I was eating all sorts of > stuff. I found that a "balanced suppement formula" produced by > AdvoCare did the trick. I have lost 15 pounds and still going. I still > eat what I want and I don’t exercise (wonder what I would lose if I > did). It may not work on you, but it has on countless others. Maybe > you should try it! >What dietary supplement is proven to make you lose weight? I’d like to buy >stock in this company. But we’ll first need to get beyond your mere >pronouncement or testimonial. It wasn’t until Joe and Mary started eating >rutabagas that they started to have smooth skin. >Yours in pill-popping solutions to long-term fat loss! >Kali

Response:

Habib, you’ll never make it on this NG. You are proposing something that involves discipline. We are waiting for the alt-med Pill Fairy or magical magnets to come save us from that. Seriously, I am sure that many of our friends here practice a healthy lifestyle. Many of our debates involve the legitimacy of some of the claims regarding elements beyond what you wisely highlighted. Again – some alt-med nostrums work – some don’t. "Purists" hate that and invoke the Galileo Effect – along with this giant conspiratorial worldview that gives legitimate approaches a black eye by embracing kooks. Separating the real from the unreal is what starts most of our debates. — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I couldn’t agree with you more. Also the supplement industry doesn’t > truly have an interest in seeing us discover the simple essentials of > life. These simple essentials of good diet, exercise, adequate > sleep/rest, pure water, sunlight, etc, would take away just as much > business from the "natural supplement" industry, as they would from > the drug industry. What do you think, Kali? > Habib

Response:

– Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/ > My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, > I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. > There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for > everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us. > Interesting opinion, any facts to back it up? > The major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product > glut. > Sagging sales? Your source please.

Source: National Council For Reliable Health Information Newsletter, October 1999 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everywhere I look I see ads for herbal remedies and "natural" > health aids such as magic magnets and sex enhancers. We’re so > inundated with flim-flam products, it’s no wonder we’re neurotic > about our health. > A few fallacies here. *We* are not *neurotic* about our health. It is > apparent that the concern for health issues has increased (and probably > dramaticly) in the last few decades. You have some sort of problem with > this? You think it is neurotic for an individual to be concerned with > his health? Please state one thing that is more important than an > individuals health. Personally, I think that health is the most > important thing in a persons life. It pleases me to see that our society > is increasingly health oriented. > It’s funny that you are ranting about advertising of natural medicines > when it should be painfully obvious to any one who is in contact with > *any* form of mass media, that there are far far far more advertisements > concerning prescription medicines. Are you going to rant about that as > well?

Absurd. One industry has virtually no rules it needs to follow and the other is heavily tested with the best of science and multi-million dollar studes to prove efficacy and safety. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There has been a real cooling of demand for the male hormone > drug "andro," which I think should be dumped anyway. > Wow. > Studies have shown andro to be ineffective and possibly harmful > to athletes trying to bulk up. Even baseball slugger Mark McGwire > now says he’s no longer taking the drug, which has been a big > seller in health food stores. > Wow. There are studies showing oxygen to be harmful. Should we all stop > breathing? BTW, I’d like to see your source on this claim (about andro > being harmful).

That’s ridiculous incredulity, my man. You are not up on this one. I can pull out MANY studies, but guess what, it won’t change your mind. Here’s one from those evil, greedy doctors (who knows what you consider proof). The supplement androstenedione or "andro" may, however, increase female hormones in men, resulting in pronounced breast enlargement, according to a study in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA). I’ve ranted and raved for a long time against this supplement, which soared in popularity after baseball homerun champion Mark McGwire mentioned that he took the steroid to enhance his performance. Now, it’s time to pull andro out of health food stores. The substance is not effective and it can be dangerous to young men who use it. If the health food industry is really concerned about what’s good for you, this product should be voluntarily banned. It comes as no surprise to me that andro doesn’t do anything to improve your health and, in fact, could result in serious side effects. The JAMA study says these include: –Significant declines in "good" cholesterol levels, which could lead to a heart attack. –Elevated estrogen levels associated with a higher risk of pancreatic and possibly other cancers. –The development of gynecomastia – or enlarged breasts. –A tendency to develop aggressive behavior. In addition, researchers say there was no difference in muscle strength between men taking 300 milligrams of andro daily and those taking a placebo while engaged in resistance training. There was similar increases in biceps, shoulder and chest sizes during resistance training in both andro and placebo subjects, researchers say. The same was true of a decrease in the sizes of the subjects’ abdomen, waist, hip and gluteal circumferences. While andro is a known precurser to testosterone, using the supplement over eight weeks didn’t result in increased serum testosterone levels, the researchers add. In other words, there are no benefits to taking andro and there can be serious health consequences. All you men out there could end up with enlarged breasts. What else can I tell you to get you to quit? The use of andro, by the way, is banned for competitors by the International Olympic Committee. But, in this country, it can be used by baseball players or bought over-the-counter by a child. I’m therefore calling on the health food industry to take an interest in your well-being and pull this alleged muscle builder off the market. Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, June 2, 1999. > There’s now a big battle for top slot in the energy bar segment > of the industry. > Oh wow. A "Big Battle" huh? You know, I thought you just said, "The > major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product glut." > Now you say there is competition for who makes the best food bar. That > would imply new products and increased demand for food bars. Would you > please clarify me on this point?

Oh man, if you see a contradiction here, then it isn’t going to do much good to use reasoning with you – you missed the whole thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The whole industry is facing disappointing sales. The profits > for the leading supplements companies fell this year, and it > looks like the trend is continuing. > Really? I hadn’t heard that the "whole industry is facing disappointing > sales." I look forward to verifying your source on this information. > Although, since supplement sales have been *skyrocketing* for the last 7 > years, I suppose it’s about time it leveled off. > If the supplement industry sinks, it will be because of its own > greed and dishonesty. > It won’t. Greed and dishonesty are in every industry in every country of > the world. Your cynicism does nothing to help anyone.

I’ll bet you have something to "help" us all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Before you buy.

Response:

> What dietary supplement is proven to make you lose weight?

Seedless peanuts. Bentley — Visit the Interactive Herbal http://www.geocities.com/rusticroots Before you buy.

Response:

All I can add to this is that I weighed in at 282 for over 5 years. I took many "supplements" but nothing worked. I was eating all sorts of stuff. I found that a "balanced suppement formula" produced by AdvoCare did the trick. I have lost 15 pounds and still going. I still eat what I want and I don’t exercise (wonder what I would lose if I did). It may not work on you, but it has on countless others. Maybe you should try it! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >What dietary supplement is proven to make you lose weight? I’d like to buy >stock in this company. But we’ll first need to get beyond your mere >pronouncement or testimonial. It wasn’t until Joe and Mary started eating >rutabagas that they started to have smooth skin. >Yours in pill-popping solutions to long-term fat loss! >Kali >– >Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/ > I would have to disagree with you both. Yes in some circumstance > supplements are just a load of bull but there are some that work. I’ve > been dieting for three years now and it wasn’t until I started using a > supplement that the weight really started to come off. I have always > been eating healthily and taken part in regular exercise and I was never > looking for a get out clause i just wanted to lose the weight slightly > faster. And it worked! > I agree that most supplement suppliers don’t care about their clients > and make the most ridiculous claims but how can I just can’t possibly > agree with your arguments when i’ve succesfully used supplements myself. > Yours a happy herbal supplement user! > Laura > Before you buy.

Response:

Food is a dietary supplement? All right, maybe it’s true. What is the percentage of success regarding long-term weight loss with this approach? What is your best evidence. — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What dietary supplement is proven to make you lose weight? > Seedless peanuts. > Bentley > — > Visit the Interactive Herbal > http://www.geocities.com/rusticroots > Before you buy.

Response:

> My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, > I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. > There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for > everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us.

Interesting opinion, any facts to back it up? > The major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product > glut.

Sagging sales? Your source please. > Everywhere I look I see ads for herbal remedies and "natural" > health aids such as magic magnets and sex enhancers. We’re so > inundated with flim-flam products, it’s no wonder we’re neurotic > about our health.

A few fallacies here. *We* are not *neurotic* about our health. It is apparent that the concern for health issues has increased (and probably dramaticly) in the last few decades. You have some sort of problem with this? You think it is neurotic for an individual to be concerned with his health? Please state one thing that is more important than an individuals health. Personally, I think that health is the most important thing in a persons life. It pleases me to see that our society is increasingly health oriented. It’s funny that you are ranting about advertising of natural medicines when it should be painfully obvious to any one who is in contact with *any* form of mass media, that there are far far far more advertisements concerning prescription medicines. Are you going to rant about that as well? > There has been a real cooling of demand for the male hormone > drug "andro," which I think should be dumped anyway.

Wow. > Studies have shown andro to be ineffective and possibly harmful > to athletes trying to bulk up. Even baseball slugger Mark McGwire > now says he’s no longer taking the drug, which has been a big > seller in health food stores.

Wow. There are studies showing oxygen to be harmful. Should we all stop breathing? BTW, I’d like to see your source on this claim (about andro being harmful). > There’s now a big battle for top slot in the energy bar segment > of the industry.

Oh wow. A "Big Battle" huh? You know, I thought you just said, "The major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product glut." Now you say there is competition for who makes the best food bar. That would imply new products and increased demand for food bars. Would you please clarify me on this point? > The whole industry is facing disappointing sales. The profits > for the leading supplements companies fell this year, and it > looks like the trend is continuing.

Really? I hadn’t heard that the "whole industry is facing disappointing sales." I look forward to verifying your source on this information. Although, since supplement sales have been *skyrocketing* for the last 7 years, I suppose it’s about time it leveled off. > If the supplement industry sinks, it will be because of its own > greed and dishonesty.

It won’t. Greed and dishonesty are in every industry in every country of the world. Your cynicism does nothing to help anyone. Before you buy.

Response:

What dietary supplement is proven to make you lose weight? I’d like to buy stock in this company. But we’ll first need to get beyond your mere pronouncement or testimonial. It wasn’t until Joe and Mary started eating rutabagas that they started to have smooth skin. Yours in pill-popping solutions to long-term fat loss! Kali — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I would have to disagree with you both. Yes in some circumstance > supplements are just a load of bull but there are some that work. I’ve > been dieting for three years now and it wasn’t until I started using a > supplement that the weight really started to come off. I have always > been eating healthily and taken part in regular exercise and I was never > looking for a get out clause i just wanted to lose the weight slightly > faster. And it worked! > I agree that most supplement suppliers don’t care about their clients > and make the most ridiculous claims but how can I just can’t possibly > agree with your arguments when i’ve succesfully used supplements myself. > Yours a happy herbal supplement user! > Laura > Before you buy.

Response:

>Thank you for writing this. Please excuse me for my rant on ‘FLUORIDATED >WATER; MOTHER NATURE THOUGHT OF IT FIRST". Some of us are passionate in our >stances and realize that we don’t have to agree, but can still be friends. >Supplements got me through school. I know the business. I recommend them as >often as I condemn them. Your painting me as going through life ranting is – >well- a way for you to deal with what I have to say, rather than face me in >the court of logic – toe to toe. It is inferring that my life is imbalanced >and doesn’t work, which is a real laugh.

Dear Kali, lighten up.  It appears you concentrated only on the last couple of sentences of my post.  I am interested in your answers to the questions I posed.  Actually, we are in agreement on several things, one of which, is the idea that some companies are in the business to make a buck without regard to the welfare of people.  But, you made it sound as though the supplement industry has nothing of value to offer.  That statement I disagree with from personal experience.  As far as ‘ranting and raving,’ I believe you initiated description, I merely confirmed my opinion based on the tone of your post.  C. Bond – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->– >Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/ >Kali’s rant’s are important. For alot of people reading this news group they >are a shred of light coming into a deep, dark cave. Many (I’m sure) return >primarily to read his most recent posts, and take solace in the fact there’s >someone out there who isn’t afraid to tell the truth. Take a good look >inside your mind and examine the reasons for your attack on him, and instead >of attacking me back (I’m sure you’re more than temted) use that energy to >write something beneficial to this news group >My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, >I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. >There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for >everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us. >Dear Kali, the supplements that are helping people will continue to be used. >Some >Companies may produce supplements which provide little if any value, but the >Companies in it  for the long haul will continue.  I can’t help but ask if >you have ever >experienced physical distress, lack of energy, low immunity, etc.  It takes >this experience in combination with the mainstream medicine’s inability to >determine not only the cause, but a solution, for an individual to head for >the health food store.  Having said this, there is also another category of >people who just take supplements, that’s the way it is.  Obtaining >supplements which help with the symptons and in some cases cure the problem >is why people turn to it.  You paint a very bleak picture, when in fact, >many people benefit from supplements or they wouldn’t continue to do it. >Until you are helped by supplements, you’ll continue your ranting and >raving, although once you assisted you’ll rant and rave on the other side. >You like to rant and rave or you wouldn’t rant and rave.  Have a good day >ranting and raving. <G>       C. Bond ><snip>

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, > I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. > There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for > everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us. > The major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product > glut. > Everywhere I look I see ads for herbal remedies and "natural" > health aids such as magic magnets and sex enhancers. We’re so > inundated with flim-flam products, it’s no wonder we’re neurotic > about our health. > There has been a real cooling of demand for the male hormone > drug "andro," which I think should be dumped anyway. > Studies have shown andro to be ineffective and possibly harmful > to athletes trying to bulk up. Even baseball slugger Mark McGwire > now says he’s no longer taking the drug, which has been a big > seller in health food stores. > There’s now a big battle for top slot in the energy bar segment > of the industry. > The whole industry is facing disappointing sales. The profits > for the leading supplements companies fell this year, and it > looks like the trend is continuing. > If the supplement industry sinks, it will be because of its own > greed and dishonesty. > — > Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

I couldn’t agree with you more. Also the supplement industry doesn’t truly have an interest in seeing us discover the simple essentials of life. These simple essentials of good diet, exercise, adequate sleep/rest, pure water, sunlight, etc, would take away just as much business from the "natural supplement" industry, as they would from the drug industry. What do you think, Kali? Habib

Response:

> My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, > I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. > There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for > everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us. > The major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product > glut.

Yes….Kali (SNIP) It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. Are you getting confused with all those alternative products? Before you buy.

Response:

Thank you for writing this. Please excuse me for my rant on ‘FLUORIDATED WATER; MOTHER NATURE THOUGHT OF IT FIRST". Some of us are passionate in our stances and realize that we don’t have to agree, but can still be friends. Supplements got me through school. I know the business. I recommend them as often as I condemn them. Your painting me as going through life ranting is – well- a way for you to deal with what I have to say, rather than face me in the court of logic – toe to toe. It is inferring that my life is imbalanced and doesn’t work, which is a real laugh. — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

Kali’s rant’s are important. For alot of people reading this news group they are a shred of light coming into a deep, dark cave. Many (I’m sure) return primarily to read his most recent posts, and take solace in the fact there’s someone out there who isn’t afraid to tell the truth. Take a good look inside your mind and examine the reasons for your attack on him, and instead of attacking me back (I’m sure you’re more than temted) use that energy to write something beneficial to this news group >My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, >I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. >There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for >everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us.

Dear Kali, the supplements that are helping people will continue to be used. Some Companies may produce supplements which provide little if any value, but the Companies in it  for the long haul will continue.  I can’t help but ask if you have ever experienced physical distress, lack of energy, low immunity, etc.  It takes this experience in combination with the mainstream medicine’s inability to determine not only the cause, but a solution, for an individual to head for the health food store.  Having said this, there is also another category of people who just take supplements, that’s the way it is.  Obtaining supplements which help with the symptons and in some cases cure the problem is why people turn to it.  You paint a very bleak picture, when in fact, many people benefit from supplements or they wouldn’t continue to do it. Until you are helped by supplements, you’ll continue your ranting and raving, although once you assisted you’ll rant and rave on the other side. You like to rant and rave or you wouldn’t rant and rave.  Have a good day ranting and raving. <G>       C. Bond <snip>

Response:

Kali’s rant’s are important. For alot of people reading this news group they are a shred of light coming into a deep, dark cave. Many (I’m sure) return primarily to read his most recent posts, and take solace in the fact there’s someone out there who isn’t afraid to tell the truth. Take a good look inside your mind and examine the reasons for your attack on him, and instead of attacking me back (I’m sure you’re more than temted) use that energy to write something beneficial to this news group – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, >I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. >There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for >everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us. > Dear Kali, the supplements that are helping people will continue to be used. > Some > Companies may produce supplements which provide little if any value, but the > Companies in it  for the long haul will continue.  I can’t help but ask if > you have ever > experienced physical distress, lack of energy, low immunity, etc.  It takes > this experience in combination with the mainstream medicine’s inability to > determine not only the cause, but a solution, for an individual to head for > the health food store.  Having said this, there is also another category of > people who just take supplements, that’s the way it is.  Obtaining > supplements which help with the symptons and in some cases cure the problem > is why people turn to it.  You paint a very bleak picture, when in fact, > many people benefit from supplements or they wouldn’t continue to do it. > Until you are helped by supplements, you’ll continue your ranting and > raving, although once you assisted you’ll rant and rave on the other side. > You like to rant and rave or you wouldn’t rant and rave.  Have a good day > ranting and raving. <G>       C. Bond > <snip>

Response:

>My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, >I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. >There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for >everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us.

Dear Kali, the supplements that are helping people will continue to be used. Some Companies may produce supplements which provide little if any value, but the Companies in it  for the long haul will continue.  I can’t help but ask if you have ever experienced physical distress, lack of energy, low immunity, etc.  It takes this experience in combination with the mainstream medicine’s inability to determine not only the cause, but a solution, for an individual to head for the health food store.  Having said this, there is also another category of people who just take supplements, that’s the way it is.  Obtaining supplements which help with the symptons and in some cases cure the problem is why people turn to it.  You paint a very bleak picture, when in fact, many people benefit from supplements or they wouldn’t continue to do it. Until you are helped by supplements, you’ll continue your ranting and raving, although once you assisted you’ll rant and rave on the other side. You like to rant and rave or you wouldn’t rant and rave.  Have a good day ranting and raving. <G>       C. Bond <snip>

Response:

My ranting and raving against the claims of the industry aside, I now see that it’s tough times in the food supplement industry. There are just too many hucksters trying to sell us cures for everything, most of which don’t work and may even harm us. The major reason for sagging supplement sales is plain old product glut. Everywhere I look I see ads for herbal remedies and "natural" health aids such as magic magnets and sex enhancers. We’re so inundated with flim-flam products, it’s no wonder we’re neurotic about our health. There has been a real cooling of demand for the male hormone drug "andro," which I think should be dumped anyway. Studies have shown andro to be ineffective and possibly harmful to athletes trying to bulk up. Even baseball slugger Mark McGwire now says he’s no longer taking the drug, which has been a big seller in health food stores. There’s now a big battle for top slot in the energy bar segment of the industry. The whole industry is facing disappointing sales. The profits for the leading supplements companies fell this year, and it looks like the trend is continuing. If the supplement industry sinks, it will be because of its own greed and dishonesty. — Kali On Line; http://members.xoom.com/arniskali/

Response:

I would have to disagree with you both. Yes in some circumstance supplements are just a load of bull but there are some that work. I’ve been dieting for three years now and it wasn’t until I started using a supplement that the weight really started to come off. I have always been eating healthily and taken part in regular exercise and I was never looking for a get out clause i just wanted to lose the weight slightly faster. And it worked! I agree that most supplement suppliers don’t care about their clients and make the most ridiculous claims but how can I just can’t possibly agree with your arguments when i’ve succesfully used supplements myself. Yours a happy herbal supplement user! Laura Before you buy.

Response:

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