Aids HIV FAQ

Breastfeeding with Piercings (the *true* story!)

Question:

Okay… so I am a Licensed Midwife, a La Leche League leader (a breastfeeding counselor), a Certified Doula (childbirth assistant), a Certified Childbirth Educator, and a CDC Certified HIV/AIDS Counselor… and, even though I am new here, I just can’t sit by and watch this "Todd/rings" person dispense erroneous and (simply) stupid misinformation.  Midwifery and Women’s Health Care has been my calling for the last 14 years. I have several body piercings and tatts but no nipple piercings. However, I have helped about 6 women successfully nurse their babies while keeping the rings/bars intact… and many others who chose to remove the rings/bars during the baby’s suckling. Even though it is *way* off topic… babies do *not* need to suckle in the first 24 hours in order for the mother to make milk.  Many, many, *many* women are not able to nurse their babies… or choose not to nurse them… for days, weeks, and even months because of a baby being ill, in NICU, or on the bottle for a variety of reasons.  Even if she doesn’t pump… it only takes a couple of days to get the brain to kick into gear and the mammary glands to begin milk production all over again. Many adoptive parents (and "other mothers") also nurse their babies… never having gotten pregnant before.  They generally need to supplement (with a bottle or a nursing supplementer that simulates, and stimulates, lactation so the baby suckles and gets adequate nutrition), but women who have been pregnant before usually won’t have to supplement.  Some women will use oxytocin nosespray to help induce lactation, but most don’t.  Nursing a non-biological child takes incredible patience and time but everyone who has done it has found it well worth the time and effort. FYI, Todd, breastmilk is not called "lactate." Now, the deal with nursing with piercings. If the piercings are well-healed at the time of delivery (and women are strongly encouraged to *not* get piercings during pregnancy or lactation), the decision to keep the rings/bars in is strictly up to the mom and partner/s.   Some women worry about the baby swallowing the ring/bar and/or the bead.  I explain that captive beads are probably not the best way to go, but rings that connect or bars with screw on beads are more reassuring.  Before nursing, make sure everything is closed properly (with your clean hands) and there shouldn’t be a problem. Yes, the operative word *is* "shouldn’t".  Something can *always* happen.  Yes, babies *have* swallowed beads or bars or rings… none of the babies I have helped nurse… but I haven’t ever heard of any problems when it did happen. Some women choose to remove their jewelry each time the baby nurses… and that is certainly a choice I honor.  Instinct is an important tool in mothering Some women also choose to remove the jewelry for the duration of the nursing experience and be re-pierced when they are ready. Lela’s midwife asked her to remove her jewelry to prepare her nipples for breastfeeding.  Nipple preparation is simply not done anymore… and Lela, I would be asking "why" and, after reading _Womanly Art of Breastfeeding_ or Sheila Kitzinger’s _Breastfeeding_ book, showing her that the nipples are perfect just the way they are.  All research in the last 10 years has shown that sore nipples occur when positioning is off or if the baby has a suck problem (both usually easily corrected with a LLL leader or a Lactation Consultant).  Tweaking, rubbing, pulling, and swishing washcloths over the nipples has actually been shown to cause damage to the nipples and surrounding breast tissue. Most labial and clitoral jewlery would better be removed for delivery. Even with great pelvic integrity, it is hard to tell whose labia or clitoris will tear.  Once delivery is over, it can be replaced Keep doing those kegels (before and after)! If a Doc, Nurse, or Midwife brings in people to see your piercings without your consent… fire hir!   I think that answered the questions so far in the thread… and I am glad to answer other questions either here or in email. And here I’ll insert the standard disclaimers… YMMV, check with your health care provider, use your head, listen to your intuition, etc. Hope that helps clarify… and, Todd, next time you nurse a baby successfully (say… over a year?)  or become a Lactation Specialist, *then* you would be qualified to discuss the physiology of breastfeeding, nursing, and lactation (all *very* different experiences, btw).  Until then, please bow out gracefully. Barb aka gardenia <who really wanted to lurk for awhile… really!>                            Orlando through exquisite pain comes exquisite joy    

Response:

> and, even though I am new here, I just can’t sit by and >}watch this "Todd/rings" person dispense erroneous and (simply) stupid >}misinformation.  Midwifery and Women’s Health Care has been my calling >}for the last 14 years. }

aaah..a voice of wisdom..thank <insert preferred diety here> Thanks for the info! just one little question….. >}If a Doc, Nurse, or Midwife brings in people to see your piercings >}without your consent… fire hir!   }

how was I supposed to do that while fighting off a horny husband and delivering a 9# 13oz baby????? <g> Wildrose (hey..it still makes for delivery stories that are just a *bit* different than everyones elses!) }

DarkPanther Don’t Deny the Beast Inside

Response:

>>}If a Doc, Nurse, or Midwife brings in people to see your piercings >}without your consent… fire hir!   >} >how was I supposed to do that while fighting off a horny husband and >delivering a 9# 13oz baby????? <g>

hehe… yes, delivery story of quite an unusual nature, I’d say Always nice to know others who have Mack truck kidlets… glad to meet ya *smile* Barb aka gardenia <who had a 9lb 4oz hospital birth, a 10lb 6oz homebirth, and an 8lb 13.5oz car birth… and no body piercings yet (struggling to keep it *somewhat* on topic )>                            Orlando through exquisite pain comes exquisite joy    

Response:

   Much love a welcome aboard to the Feral Mermaid, our latest RABbit to join the fold. Here are your hears.      /   /     (~+) (o-)-o     (+~)_(  )     |       |         "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional                    takes a little longer."                       -Henry Kissinger                     http://www.best.com/~pirate

Response:

>   Much love a welcome aboard to the Feral Mermaid, our latest RABbit to >join the fold. Here are your hears.

*blush* *blush* *curtsy* Why… thankee, indeed! *tap* *tap*  Is this on? *cough*  Okay… I shall do my best to uphold the honor bestowethed upon me and shall properly care for my piercings and tatts and attend the Women’s Tattoo Convention and the Association of Professional Piercers here in Orlando (and have a festive time doing so)… and any other assignments hefted upon me in the course of being an active participant of rab. *whew* …and I "hear" real good, too… it’s getting *others* to hear… now *that* can be a real pain in the ass! Barb aka gardenia <who giggles and has a feeling she is gonna way like it here>                            Orlando through exquisite pain comes exquisite joy    

Response:

>>Okay… so I am a Licensed Midwife, a La Leche League leader (a >breastfeeding counselor), a Certified Doula (childbirth assistant), a >Certified Childbirth Educator, and a CDC Certified HIV/AIDS >Counselor… and, even though I am new here, I just can’t sit by and >watch this "Todd/rings" person dispense erroneous and (simply) stupid >misinformation.  Midwifery and Women’s Health Care has been my calling >for the last 14 years.

My server doesn’t have the original message, and this is a bit of an important subject to me.  Could someone please forward the original to me?  Thanks! Denise Robinson, Ambient Inc. Home of the Official Jim Rose Circus Web Pages    http://www.ambient.on.ca/

Response:

>Okay… so I am a Licensed Midwife, a La Leche League leader (a >breastfeeding counselor), a Certified Doula (childbirth assistant), a >Certified Childbirth Educator, and a CDC Certified HIV/AIDS >Counselor… and, even though I am new here, I just can’t sit by and >watch this "Todd/rings" person dispense erroneous and (simply) stupid >misinformation.  Midwifery and Women’s Health Care has been my calling >for the last 14 years.

Do you have any comments on the info contained in the Piercing FAQ? May I use your essay for the FAQ? Thanks for your input! —                                 * Ardvark *                               Anne Greenblatt                   Piercing FAQ Manager for rec.arts.bodyart                              Piercing Exquisite                       http://www2.ba.best.com/~ardvark

Response:

>If the piercings are well-healed at the time of delivery (and women >are strongly encouraged to *not* get piercings during pregnancy or >lactation), the decision to keep the rings/bars in is strictly up to >the mom and partner/s.  

Do you suggest they consider opting for larger jewelry for comfort, as the nipple increases in size? >Some women worry about the baby swallowing the ring/bar and/or the >bead.  I explain that captive beads are probably not the best way to >go, but rings that connect or bars with screw on beads are more >reassuring.

I’ve seen good, bad, and ugly jewelry.  Some threaded jewelry wouldn’t hold if the wind blew!  I’ve seen others that were very secure. How secure a captive bead ring is depends on the gauge, diameter, bead size, and hardness of the steel.  Most nipple rings are 5/8" to 1" in diameter, depending on the width of the piercing.  If the nipple greatly increases in size, a smaller diameter would be uncomfortable, and could cause the piercing to migrate or reject (piercing must comply with the arc of the ring). How about the concern for the baby’s palate being irritated by jewelry? Also, the thineer the gauge, the more likely the ring is to tear the piercing under stress – either pressure from the front or sharp pulling. Towards the end of nursing, the baby may start to chew on the jewelry, or even pull on it. >Before nursing, make sure everything is closed properly >(with your clean hands) and there shouldn’t be a problem.

What about cleaning the piercing, the possibility of a fungal infection developing in the piercing itself? What about blocked milk ducts unable to drain/be expressed?  Denise developed a massive infection with her new piercing, made months after she had dried up. How about excessive scar tissue increasing the chance of blocked ducts? —                                 * Ardvark *                               Anne Greenblatt                   Piercing FAQ Manager for rec.arts.bodyart                              Piercing Exquisite                       http://www2.ba.best.com/~ardvark

Response:

|> |> >>Okay… so I am a Licensed Midwife, a La Leche League leader (a |> >>breastfeeding counselor), a Certified Doula (childbirth assistant), a |> >>Certified Childbirth Educator, and a CDC Certified HIV/AIDS |> >>Counselor… and, even though I am new here, I just can’t sit by and |> >>watch this "Todd/rings" person dispense erroneous and (simply) stupid |> >>misinformation.  Midwifery and Women’s Health Care has been my calling |> >>for the last 14 years. |> |> My server doesn’t have the original message, and this is a bit of an |> important subject to me.  Could someone please forward the original to |> me?  Thanks! me too, me too I didn’t get the original article and i’m *very* curious to read it…    .adeleine

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Okay… so I am a Licensed Midwife, a La Leche League leader (a >>breastfeeding counselor), a Certified Doula (childbirth assistant), a >>Certified Childbirth Educator, and a CDC Certified HIV/AIDS >>Counselor… and, even though I am new here, I just can’t sit by and >>watch this "Todd/rings" person dispense erroneous and (simply) stupid >>misinformation.  Midwifery and Women’s Health Care has been my calling >>for the last 14 years. > My server doesn’t have the original message, and this is a bit of an > important subject to me.  Could someone please forward the original to > me?  Thanks!

Me too, me too! ;-Per

Response:

>My server doesn’t have the original message, and this is a bit of an >important subject to me.  Could someone please forward the original to >me?  Thanks!

Just forwarded a copy to Denise, Madeline, and Per. -Bertha

Response:

I forwarded the original to all that asked.  My news server is being overhauled so I haven’t had access to post for a few days… I apologize for taking so long to reply. Barb aka gardenia <who *hates* when she can’t chat with her friends>                            Orlando through exquisite pain comes exquisite joy    

Response:

>>If the piercings are well-healed at the time of delivery (and women >are strongly encouraged to *not* get piercings during pregnancy or >lactation), the decision to keep the rings/bars in is strictly up to >the mom and partner/s.   >Do you suggest they consider opting for larger jewelry for comfort, as the >nipple increases in size?

I don’t recall any of the women getting larger jewelry during the pregnancy… but that doesn’t mean they didn’t.  When I helped the women (over a 10 year period), I knew less than nothing about body piercings.  My knowledge then was focused on getting the baby to nurse… and we just worked around the jewelry.  I am totally sure, now that I hear the other breastfeeding and piercing stories, that must have been *very* lucky to not have had the difficulties others obviously did.  This discourse is a wonderful learning opportunity for me… and I plan on taking the info and *running* with it! >How secure a captive bead ring is depends on the gauge, diameter, bead >size, and hardness of the steel.  Most nipple rings are 5/8" to 1" in >diameter, depending on the width of the piercing.  If the nipple greatly >increases in size, a smaller diameter would be uncomfortable, and could >cause the piercing to migrate or reject (piercing must comply with the arc >of the ring).

This I understand as I learn more and more about piercings… and I appreciate the input very much. >How about the concern for the baby’s palate being irritated by jewelry?

Normal, healthy, full-term infants shouldn’t have a problem with the jewelry… and a reminder that the baby sucks the nipple to the back of the mouth. near hir throat, to "milk" the breast so, depending on the size of the jewelry, it shouldn’t put too much pressure on the baby’s palate.  As always, yymv and it would behoove the parents to check the babe’s palate to make sure. I have already heard from another rab poster who has heard of palate irritation (once), so it certainly is possible… but neither of us knew the integrity of the jewelry, either. >Also, the thineer the gauge, the more likely the ring is to tear the >piercing under stress – either pressure from the front or sharp pulling. >Towards the end of nursing, the baby may start to chew on the jewelry, or >even pull on it.

Infants don’t chew and pull as a general rule, though babies do begin doing so around 6 months old or so.  As we teach them not to bite even without jewelry, we will have to teach them the same with the jewelry. As I understand the gauges and safety from tears, the larger gauge jewelry would, indeed, be better as the baby gets older.  I haven’t ever had a pierced client nurse past 6 months of age (even though many many, myself included, have nursed well past the second year), so this is all virgin ground for me.  If anyone has the experience, I know we all would love to hear it! >What about cleaning the piercing, the possibility of a fungal infection >developing in the piercing itself?

Well, breastmilk is filled with antibacterial properties… and when women have cracked and sore nipples, we encourage them to express a little milk and let it sit on the nipple to soothe and help heal it. The jewelry will be equally "cleaned" in the same manner.  Some caregivers recommend Vitamin E Oil (pure) on sore and cracked nipples, too… but that is controversial since Vitamin E is fat soluable… and can be stored in the baby’s fat and cause problems if sie receives too much.  Other home remedies can be used… and am glad to discuss them as they come up. As far as a fungal infection… are you speaking of thrush (Candida Albicans aka yeast infection)?  Thrush doesn’t happen to every nursing couplet, but it also isn’t uncommon.  I could write something on thrush and breastfeeding if you’d like… or refer you to homepages that deal with it.  If treating thrush, I don’t think any added precautions would need to be done.  The jewelry wouldn’t be adversely affected by the Nystatin (Allopathic) or even the Gentian Violet (homeopathic) and either med (along with the other standard treatments and observances when a mom and/or baby has thrush.  I *will* remind everyone though that when a baby has thrush in the mouth, a mother *and* baby need to be treated together, whether the mom is symptomatic or not… or the thrush can be passed back and forth. >What about blocked milk ducts unable to drain/be expressed?  Denise >developed a massive infection with her new piercing, made months after she >had dried up.

Denise and I are just beginning correspondence… and I didn’t address her post originally because she seemed to be comfortable with her care (which is excellent, btw) and didn’t ask for help.  Since you did (and now shall also offer some other ideas to Denise herself), I’m glad to address the issue. Denise’s original post said she had not nursed for 6 months’ time.  6 months is not a very long time in the lifespan of a formerly active milk duct.  Many, many women continue leaking (producing) milk several *years* after weaning.  My first partner’s mother continued leaking 30+ years after weaning her daughter. Even that isn’t terribly unusual… *especially* when there is breastplay on any kind of a regular basis (and it doesn’t have to be sucking). So, that said… milk sitting inside the duct does have the potential for becoming infected.  Usually, there isn’t any reason for contaminants to enter the nipple, but the jewelry is a potential conductor for those contaminants.  I would certainly encourage women to clean their rings or barbells a couple of times daily… being diligent about it… to try and lower the possibilities of getting infected. Clogged ducts and mastitis (an infection of a clogged duct) happen even when babies are nursing and, more rarely, as in Denise’s case, when weaning has occured (unless weaning was abrupt).  It is impossible to say why her duct got clogged (as well as pretty useless information at this point), but getting a duct unclogged is hard for any woman… and I’m not sure if having jewelry in there would make it any harder.  It certainly could, but my instinct tells me no.  Women who are nursing with a plugged duct would continue nursing… encouraging the baby to pull the clog out… and moms might also use an electric pump (which gets a mere 50% of the suction a baby is capacle of) to pull when the kidlet is sleeping.  And so Denise gets a little comfort, the pus isn’t unusual at all… and babies *do* continue nursing even with the pus mixed with milk.  Seeing it is a good sign that there is *some* relief as well as some opening for the infection and clogged milk to drain.  Since Denise isn’t nursing, it gets a little more complicated because there is no suction and a re-initiation of lactation isn’t desired. Denise is doing great in the massage and heat being applied.  Wet heat is better… and I would encourage hot, wet compresses *constantly*, keeping wet washcloths in a crock pot on low is a good way to have a constant supply of wet heat.  Massaging *deeply* (not only the lump, but all over the breast… starting up under the armpits and massaging downward, covering every part of the breast, ending at the nipple, once an hour is a must.  If Denise is still symptomatic of mastitis (fever, lethargy, red spot or streak on her breast), I’d encourage her to get a *massive* broad-spectrum antibiotic ASAP since mastitis can quickly turn to an abscess and need to be surgically drained.  If she isn’t symptomatic, I’d encourage aggressive non-medical means (the heat and massage taking a primary role) that would include vitamin supplements, loads of rest… and NO BRA WEARING! (and that’s for as long as the lump is there and even for awhile afterwards)   Bras are one of the *biggest* reasons women have clogged ducts and mastitis since our ducts do go so far up from what most of us would consider breast tissue.  The bra’s cups (and underwires are the *worst* culprits) cut off the ducts and the clog forms, never being given relief from the pressure of the material or wire.  Even though the duct might be pressed closed several inches above the hardened lump, the tissue is all inter-related.  If Denise hasn’t been encouraged to take her bra off (if she wears one), this act alone might help tremendously.  If a bra has to be worn for comfort or work… the wearing a loose sports bra is an option.  And I know that what I have just said about bras is counter to what every childbirth book has ever said… but those of us who have worked with nursing women know the secrets  I wouldn’t lead you astray with something this serious. >How about excessive scar tissue increasing the chance of blocked ducts?

*thinking hard* I don’t know, Anne… and that is a great question.  I have some cool midwife friends I can ask this of… and shall surely do so. I appreciate the opportunity to learn more. I know this was way long and all… but wanted to cover the questions as concisely as I could.  As always… feel free to ask anything else *smile* Barb aka gardenia <who wears bras only in extreme situations>                            Orlando through exquisite pain comes exquisite joy    

Response:

>>My server doesn’t have the original message, and this is a bit of an >important subject to me.  Could someone please forward the original to >me?  Thanks!

Can I be on the "send me one too" list?   Thanx Min

Response:

> >>My server doesn’t have the original message, and this is a bit of an >>important subject to me.  Could someone please forward the original to >>me?  Thanks! > Can I be on the "send me one too" list? > Thanx > Min

sigh, I hate to do me-too’s, but I am also interested, and also can’t access the original.  purty-please can I have a copy too? Heidi M. Anderson               University of Wisconsin-Madison

Response:

Could I possibly get a copy too?

Response:

>sigh, I hate to do me-too’s, but I am also interested, and >also can’t access the original.  purty-please can I have a >copy too?

I would forward some to these ladies, but it seems to have rolled off of my server.  If no one else sends it to you, though, I can always check Deja News and grab it from there for you. -Bertha I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use.                       — Galileo

Response:

> >sigh, I hate to do me-too’s, but I am also interested, and >also can’t access the original.  purty-please can I have a >copy too? > I would forward some to these ladies, but it seems to have rolled off > of my server.  If no one else sends it to you, though, I can always > check Deja News and grab it from there for you. > -Bertha

I just forwarded a copy to Heidi and Christina, since the article was already in my mailbox. ;-Per

Response:

> I would forward some to these ladies, but it seems to have rolled off > of my server.  If no one else sends it to you, though, I can always > check Deja News and grab it from there for you. > -Bertha

Just after having made the last fwd, I realised that Shannon has put Feral Mermaid’s Breastfeeding article in the BME. BTW: I seem to have made some kind of mess with my last posting. Sorry. ;-Per

Response:

>|> >|> >>misinformation.  Midwifery and Women’s Health Care has been my calling >|> >>for the last 14 years. >|> >|> My server doesn’t have the original message, and this is a bit of an >|> important subject to me.  Could someone please forward the original to >|> me?  Thanks! >me too, me too >I didn’t get the original article and i’m *very* curious to read it…

This article is on the BME website. Try http://www.BME.FreeQ.com/pierce/08-nipple/breastfd.html —                       http://www.geckoworld.com/~raven     glitter-hiking-perky-mopey-sewinggoff * GA-> ME 98?? The AT Adventure Michael Jackson isn’t goth, he’s just a monster who’s nose caved in -Ren, a.g

Response:

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